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Difference between revisions of "User:Kendra Brown/Latin Lew/Piece 020"

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# whisper, spread rumors
 
# whisper, spread rumors
 
# rhyme
 
# rhyme
−
</ref> above,  
+
</ref> above, &emsp; {{red|Have you considered ''rämen/rehmen'' rather than ''räumen''? ~MCC}}
 
# it [the war] is shamed by it [the whatever] below.
 
# it [the war] is shamed by it [the whatever] below.
 
#:
 
#:
 
#: &nbsp;
 
#: &nbsp;
 
#:
 
#:
−
# Know that the twists, and the work from there with the point at the four openings, is called the war.  
+
# Know that the twists, and the work with the point at the four openings, that arises from there, is therefore called the war.
−
# Execute it like this: When you strike at him with a Wrath cut,  
+
# Execute it like this: When you strike at them with a Wrath cut,  
−
# as soon as he counteracts, move up with your arms, and twist the point on their sword above at the upper opening on their left side.
+
# As soon as they counteract, then lift up your arms and twist the point inward on their sword, in at the upper opening on their left side.
−
# If he counteracts the upper thrust,  
+
# If they set the high thrust off,  
−
# then continue in the twists,  
+
# then remain standing with the twists,
−
# and let the point drop downward to their left side. If he follows with the counteraction of your sword, then, with your point, seek the lower openings on their right side.
+
# and let your point drop downward to the left side.
−
# If he continues with the counteraction, then move up with your sword on the left side,
+
#: If they then follow after your sword with the counteraction, then seek the lower opening on their right side with your point.
−
# and hang the point in above at [88r] the upper opening
+
# If they continue to follow with the counteraction, then lift the sword to the left side
−
# of their right side.
+
# And hang the sword inward from above at the upper opening
−
# And in this way, he will be shamed by the war below and above,
+
# on their right side.
−
# if you do it correctly.
+
# And thus they are shamed by [your use of] the war below and above.
−
 
+
# If you execute it correctly.
  
 
====Smooth English from German====
 
====Smooth English from German====
Line 63: Line 63:
 
: it [the war] is shamed by it [the whatever] below.
 
: it [the war] is shamed by it [the whatever] below.
  
−
Know that the twists, and the work with the point at the four openings from the twists, is called the war.  
+
 
−
Execute it like this: When you strike at him with a Wrath cut,  
+
Know that the twists, and the work with the point at the four openings, that arises from there, is therefore called the war.
−
as soon as he counteracts, raise your arms, and twist the point on their sword above at the upper opening on their left side.
+
* Execute it like this: When you strike at him with a Wrath cut, as soon as they counteract, then lift up your arms and twist the point inward on their sword, in at the upper opening on their left side.
−
If he counteracts this upper thrust, then continue in the twists, and let the point drop downward to their left side.  
+
* If they set the high thrust off, then remain standing with the twists, and let your point drop downward to the left side.
−
If he follows your sword with the counteraction, then seek the lower openings on their right side with the point.
+
* If they then follow after your sword with the counteraction, then seek the lower opening on their right side with your point.
−
If he continues to counteract, then raise your sword on the left side, and hang the point in from above at [88r] the upper opening of their right side.
+
* If they continue to follow with the counteraction, then lift the sword to the left side and hang the sword inward from above at the upper opening on their right side.
−
And in this way, he will be shamed by the war below and above, if you do it correctly.
+
* And thus they are shamed by [your use of] the war below and above if you execute it correctly.
  
 
==Munich==
 
==Munich==
 
[[File:Cod.icon._393_I_082v.jpg|thumb|Page scan]]
 
[[File:Cod.icon._393_I_082v.jpg|thumb|Page scan]]
 
[[Page:Cod.icon. 393 I 082v.jpg]]
 
[[Page:Cod.icon. 393 I 082v.jpg]]
 +
[[File:Cod.icon._393_I_083r.jpg|thumb|Page scan]]
 +
[[Page:Cod.icon. 393 I 083r.jpg]]
 +
 
===Latin===
 
===Latin===
  
 
====Transcription====
 
====Transcription====
−
{{section|Page:Cod.icon. 393 I 082v.jpg|3}}
+
{{section|Page:Cod.icon. 393 I 082v.jpg|4}}
 +
{{section|Page:Cod.icon. 393 I 083r.jpg|1}}
  
 
====Sandbox Latin====
 
====Sandbox Latin====
−
# Item cum adversarius ex forma punctionis vel Ictus ensem tuum contigerit,
 
−
# in primo conflictu,
 
−
# tu noli exercere statim Ictus crebros,
 
−
# sed festina lentè,
 
−
# ''et maximè curabis,''
 
−
# ''ut prius observes num in ensium collisione molliter vel fortiter ensem teneat,''
 
−
# Sin id deprehenderis,
 
−
# uti poteris intorsionibus,[^1]
 
−
# atque crebris ictibus quem habitum nos Germani bellum appellamus appetendo nuditates proximè obvias.
 
−
 
  
 +
# Habitus, quem nos bellum appellamus est,
 +
# cum intorsionibus et quicquod inde per mucronem versus quatour nuditates formatur,
 +
# utimur.
 +
# Verum eum hac ratione exercebis:
 +
# Si contra hostem Ictum ex ira appellationem adeptum ferias,
 +
# isque, eum exceperit<ref>exceperit is the equivalent of 'versetzt'</ref>,
 +
# sublatis brachiis,
 +
# mucronem ensis tui iuxta ipsius ensem superne contra hostis superam nuditatem lateris sinistri. 
 +
# Verum si eam vim removerit<ref>removerit is equivalent for 'setzt... ab' </ref>,
 +
# in habitu intorsionis consistere memineris,
 +
# sed mucronem deorsum convertas in latus sinistrum.
 +
# At si adversarius id quoque removeat<ref>removeat is the equivalent for 'mit der versatzung'</ref>,
 +
# tunc inferiores eius nuditates lateris dextri mucrone investiges,
 +
# et si id etiam repellat<ref>repellat is the equivalent for 'mit der versatzung'</ref>,
 +
# tu ense sublato in latus sinistrum,
 +
# contra latus hostis dextrum mucronem nuditates supernas inquirendo inmittas,
 +
# itaque habitum belli vel militiae infernè et supernè hostis exagitabitur,
 +
# si quidem eum iuxta Athletarum veram instructionem exercueris.
  
 
===English===
 
===English===
  
 
====Sandbox English from Latin====
 
====Sandbox English from Latin====
−
# Also, when the adversary touches your sword from the form of thrust or strike,
 
−
# in the first conflict,
 
−
# do not immediately practice repeated strikes,
 
−
# but hasten slowly,
 
−
# ''and you will take the greatest care,''
 
−
# ''in order to observe earlier whether he holds the sword gently or strongly in the striking together of swords,''
 
−
# but if you catch this,
 
−
# you are able to use the wrapping,
 
−
# and within the timeframe of the repeated strikes (which is the aspect of the art that we Germans call beautiful/warfare) you attack by closely seeking the opening.
 
  
 +
# The aspect of the art, which we call the war,
 +
# uses the inward turnings and it is shaped from that place by the point against four openings,
 +
# [subsumed into 2]
 +
# certainly you will practice it [this aspect of the art] with this method:
 +
# If you would strike a winning stroke, taking its name from ire,
 +
# and THEY have intercepted it
 +
# having lifted [your] shoulders,
 +
# join the point of your sword above their sword and towards the enemy at the upper opening on the left side.<ref>Based on comparison to the German, this line is missing its main verb which should probably be a form of torqueo</ref><ref>We've read "iuxta" as the imperative of "iuxtare", but this is an uncommon verb; "iuxta" is most commonly an adverb or preposition meaning "near", in which case this sentence would read "If you would strike a winning stroke (taking its name from ire) against the enemy, and THEY intercept it, shoulders lifted, with the point of your sword next to and over their sword and against the enemy's upper opening on the left side."</ref>
 +
#  Certainly, if they were to set that strength aside,
 +
# remember to persist in the state of the turning inward
 +
# but also reverse the point below into their left side
 +
# And if the adversary would also set that off,
 +
# then search after their lower opening on the right side with the point.
 +
# and if they would likewise counteract that,
 +
# you, having lifted your sword into the left side,
 +
# would send the tip against the enemy, seeking the upper right opening.
 +
# and so the enemy will have been goaded, below and above by the technique of the war (or the campaign).<ref>The Latin term 'militia' broadly covers war and campaign, to those who engage in them, soldiers (collectively) and armies, as well as aspects of courage, bravery, and military spirit, as well as 'any difficult work'. The latter is especially interesting, as that is the medieval meaning of the German word Krieg, which is only limited to meaning 'war' in the 17th century.</ref>
 +
# If indeed you practice, having joined athletics truly with instruction.
  
 
====Smooth English from Latin====
 
====Smooth English from Latin====
  
−
When the adversary makes contact with your sword during an initial attack, ''don't immediately try to hit back, but take care to determine quickly whether he holds the sword strongly or gently.'' If you can catch it, you can use wrappings, and you attack by closely seeking the opening during the repeated strikes (which we Germans call beautiful/warfare).
+
The aspect of the art which we call the war uses the wrappings, and it is shaped by the point from that place against four openings; certainly you will practice it [this aspect of the art] with this method:
 +
* If you would strike a winning stroke, taking its name from ire, and THEY intercept it, having lifted [your] shoulders, join the point of your sword above their sword toward the enemy at the upper opening on the left side.
 +
* Certainly, if they were to set that strength aside, remember to persist in the state of the twisting/turning inward, but also reverse the point below into the left side
 +
* And if the adversary would also set that off,then seek their lower opening on the right side with the point.
 +
* and if they would likewise counteract that, you, having lifted your sword into the left side, should send the tip against the enemy, seeking the upper right opening.
 +
* and so the enemy will have been goaded below and above by the technique of the war (or the campaign) if indeed you practice, having joined athletics truly with instruction.
  
 
==Notes==
 
==Notes==
−
 
−
 
−
* [^1]: There is an INDES in the original here.
 
−
* two parallel phrases: in the german too 
 
−
* Note on crebros: if it's related to winden, "continuous" may be a better reading than "repeated"; could there be a sense of "crowded" as in "aggressive, applying threat without letting up"? 
 
−
** I have replaced crebris/crebros with continuous 
 
−
* footnote: festina lente is a well known Latin saying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festina_lente During PHM's lifetime, it's the personal motto of Cosimo de'Medici (duke of Florence 1537-69) 
 
−
* footnote: molliter is not only "gently" but also "tenderly, affectionately" or even "effeminately"-- there are simpler words available for "weakly" or "less strongly." Fortiter is the most common and simple word for strongly; there are alternatives (in this text) that have more connotations. 
 
−
* footnote: bellum war/beauty connection 
 
−
* note from Amy: it's interesting that he brings "we germans" into the explanation, suggesting he (PHM or the writer) sees the audience as not German, or not truly German
 
−
* the German for this says krieg=winden, but the Latin translator has made up a new word for krieg and then glossed it, and so has to use that ''and'' winden/intorsionibus instead of making them equal to each other.
 
−
* This seems not to be a grammatical order indes, but indes implied using references to speed and timing.
 
  
 
{{reflist}}
 
{{reflist}}

Latest revision as of 19:08, 7 October 2025


Dresden

Page image

Page:MS_Dresd.C.93_087v.png

German

Transcription

[3] Was der krieg oben rempt
 niden wirt er beschempt

Wisz das die winnden Vnnd die arbait darausz mit dem Ort zu den vier plössen Dasselb haist der krieg. den treib also wann du Im mit dem zornhaw einhawest. Alsz bald er dann versetzt so far auf mit den armen vnnd wind Im den Ort ann seinem Schwert oben ein zu der obern plosse seiner Lincken seite. setzt er dann den obern stich ab. so beleib also steen mit dem winden. vnnd lasz den Ort vnndersich Nidersincken zu der lincken seiten volgt Er dann mit der versatzung deinem schwert nach so suche mit deinem Ort die vnndern plösse seiner rechten seite. volgt er dann virbas mit der versatzung so far auf mit dem schwert auff die Lincken seite. Vnnd henng Im den ~~~~ Ort oben ein zu

[1] der obern plössen. seinner rechten seiten. Vnnd also wirt er mit dem krieg vnnden vnnd oben beschempt. Ist das du In recht treybest.

Sandbox German

  1. Was der krieg oben rempt
  2. niden wirt er beschempt
     
  3. Wiß das die winnden Vnnd die arbait darauß mit dem Ort zu den vier plossen Dasselb haist der krieg,
  4. den treib also wann du Im mit dem Zornhaw ein hawest,
  5. alß bald er dann versetzt so far auf mit den armen vnnd wind Im den Ort ann seinem Schwert oben ein zu der obern plosse seiner Lincken seitten,
  6. setzt er dann den obern stich ab,
  7. so beleib also steen mit dem winden,
  8. vnnd laß den Ort vnndersich Nidersincken zu der lincken seiten volgt Er dann mit der versatzung deinem schwert nach so suche mit deinem Ort die vnndern plösse seiner rechten seitten,
  9. volgt er dann virbas mit der versatzung so far auf mit dem schwert auff die Lincken seitten,
  10. Vnnd henng Im den Ort oben ein zu
  11. der obern plössen,
  12. seiner rechten seiten,
  13. Vnnd also wirt er mit dem krieg vnnden vnnd oben beschempt,
  14. Ist ^das^ du in recht treÿbest



English

Sandbox English from German

  1. Whatever the war [verbs][1] above,   Have you considered rämen/rehmen rather than räumen? ~MCC
  2. it [the war] is shamed by it [the whatever] below.
     
  3. Know that the twists, and the work with the point at the four openings, that arises from there, is therefore called the war.
  4. Execute it like this: When you strike at them with a Wrath cut,
  5. As soon as they counteract, then lift up your arms and twist the point inward on their sword, in at the upper opening on their left side.
  6. If they set the high thrust off,
  7. then remain standing with the twists,
  8. and let your point drop downward to the left side.
    If they then follow after your sword with the counteraction, then seek the lower opening on their right side with your point.
  9. If they continue to follow with the counteraction, then lift the sword to the left side
  10. And hang the sword inward from above at the upper opening
  11. on their right side.
  12. And thus they are shamed by [your use of] the war below and above.
  13. If you execute it correctly.

Smooth English from German

Whatever the war [verbs] above,
it [the war] is shamed by it [the whatever] below.


Know that the twists, and the work with the point at the four openings, that arises from there, is therefore called the war.

  • Execute it like this: When you strike at him with a Wrath cut, as soon as they counteract, then lift up your arms and twist the point inward on their sword, in at the upper opening on their left side.
  • If they set the high thrust off, then remain standing with the twists, and let your point drop downward to the left side.
  • If they then follow after your sword with the counteraction, then seek the lower opening on their right side with your point.
  • If they continue to follow with the counteraction, then lift the sword to the left side and hang the sword inward from above at the upper opening on their right side.
  • And thus they are shamed by [your use of] the war below and above if you execute it correctly.

Munich

Page scan

Page:Cod.icon. 393 I 082v.jpg

Page scan

Page:Cod.icon. 393 I 083r.jpg

Latin

Transcription

[4] Habitus, quem nos bellum appellamus est, cum intorsionibus et quicquod inde per mucronem versus quatour nuditates formatur, utimur. Verum eum hac ratione ex

[1] ercebis: Si contra hostem Ictum ex ira appellationem adeptum ferias, isque, cum exceperit, sublatis brachiis, mucronem ensis tui iuxta ipsius ensem superne contra hostis supernam nuditatem lateris sinistri. Verum si eam vim removerit, in habitu intorsionis consistere memineris, sed mucronem deorsum convertas in latus sinistrum. At si adversarius id quoque removeat, tunc inferiores eius nuditates lateris dextri mucrone investiges, et si id etiam repellat, tu ense sublato in latus sinistrum, contra latus hostis dextrum mucronem nuditates supernas inquirendo inmittas, itaque habitum belli vel militiae infernè et supernè hostis exagitabitur, si quidem eum iuxta Athletarum veram instructionem exercueris.

Sandbox Latin

  1. Habitus, quem nos bellum appellamus est,
  2. cum intorsionibus et quicquod inde per mucronem versus quatour nuditates formatur,
  3. utimur.
  4. Verum eum hac ratione exercebis:
  5. Si contra hostem Ictum ex ira appellationem adeptum ferias,
  6. isque, eum exceperit[2],
  7. sublatis brachiis,
  8. mucronem ensis tui iuxta ipsius ensem superne contra hostis superam nuditatem lateris sinistri.
  9. Verum si eam vim removerit[3],
  10. in habitu intorsionis consistere memineris,
  11. sed mucronem deorsum convertas in latus sinistrum.
  12. At si adversarius id quoque removeat[4],
  13. tunc inferiores eius nuditates lateris dextri mucrone investiges,
  14. et si id etiam repellat[5],
  15. tu ense sublato in latus sinistrum,
  16. contra latus hostis dextrum mucronem nuditates supernas inquirendo inmittas,
  17. itaque habitum belli vel militiae infernè et supernè hostis exagitabitur,
  18. si quidem eum iuxta Athletarum veram instructionem exercueris.

English

Sandbox English from Latin

  1. The aspect of the art, which we call the war,
  2. uses the inward turnings and it is shaped from that place by the point against four openings,
  3. [subsumed into 2]
  4. certainly you will practice it [this aspect of the art] with this method:
  5. If you would strike a winning stroke, taking its name from ire,
  6. and THEY have intercepted it
  7. having lifted [your] shoulders,
  8. join the point of your sword above their sword and towards the enemy at the upper opening on the left side.[6][7]
  9. Certainly, if they were to set that strength aside,
  10. remember to persist in the state of the turning inward
  11. but also reverse the point below into their left side
  12. And if the adversary would also set that off,
  13. then search after their lower opening on the right side with the point.
  14. and if they would likewise counteract that,
  15. you, having lifted your sword into the left side,
  16. would send the tip against the enemy, seeking the upper right opening.
  17. and so the enemy will have been goaded, below and above by the technique of the war (or the campaign).[8]
  18. If indeed you practice, having joined athletics truly with instruction.

Smooth English from Latin

The aspect of the art which we call the war uses the wrappings, and it is shaped by the point from that place against four openings; certainly you will practice it [this aspect of the art] with this method:

  • If you would strike a winning stroke, taking its name from ire, and THEY intercept it, having lifted [your] shoulders, join the point of your sword above their sword toward the enemy at the upper opening on the left side.
  • Certainly, if they were to set that strength aside, remember to persist in the state of the twisting/turning inward, but also reverse the point below into the left side
  • And if the adversary would also set that off,then seek their lower opening on the right side with the point.
  • and if they would likewise counteract that, you, having lifted your sword into the left side, should send the tip against the enemy, seeking the upper right opening.
  • and so the enemy will have been goaded below and above by the technique of the war (or the campaign) if indeed you practice, having joined athletics truly with instruction.

Notes

  1. ↑ Meanings of räumen:
    1. a) vacates/abandons b) yields, makes room for, frees up, c) removes d) needs to remove
    2. remove the cream: unlikely
    3. whisper, spread rumors
    4. rhyme
  2. ↑ exceperit is the equivalent of 'versetzt'
  3. ↑ removerit is equivalent for 'setzt... ab'
  4. ↑ removeat is the equivalent for 'mit der versatzung'
  5. ↑ repellat is the equivalent for 'mit der versatzung'
  6. ↑ Based on comparison to the German, this line is missing its main verb which should probably be a form of torqueo
  7. ↑ We've read "iuxta" as the imperative of "iuxtare", but this is an uncommon verb; "iuxta" is most commonly an adverb or preposition meaning "near", in which case this sentence would read "If you would strike a winning stroke (taking its name from ire) against the enemy, and THEY intercept it, shoulders lifted, with the point of your sword next to and over their sword and against the enemy's upper opening on the left side."
  8. ↑ The Latin term 'militia' broadly covers war and campaign, to those who engage in them, soldiers (collectively) and armies, as well as aspects of courage, bravery, and military spirit, as well as 'any difficult work'. The latter is especially interesting, as that is the medieval meaning of the German word Krieg, which is only limited to meaning 'war' in the 17th century.
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