You are not currently logged in. Are you accessing the unsecure (http) portal? Click here to switch to the secure portal. |
Difference between revisions of "Cluny Fechtbuch (Cl. 23842)/Comparisons"
(11 intermediate revisions by the same user not shown) | |||
Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
+ | In this table, all pages in the Cluny Fechtbuch long sword section are presented in order. Other pictures are placed around them based on resemblance to Cluny or their respective places in the gloss. In the case of Kal, Falkner, and Wilhalm, the text is disregarded if it contradicts the placement of the illustration in Cluny. | ||
+ | |||
+ | The association of the ''Zettel'' with the Cluny illustrations is largely speculative. A few pages of Cluny quote the relevant Zettel passage, but other assignments are based on the Cluny's resemblance to other illustrations with firm ''Zettel'' associations, and the rest are filled in based on the assumption that the plays in Cluny follow the sequence of the ''Zettel''. | ||
+ | |||
+ | The ''Zettel'' in the first column is quoted from the [[Starhemberg Fechtbuch (Cod.44.A.8)|Starhemberg Fechtbuch]] (since that's the one [[Christian Henry Tobler]]'s translation in that column is based on), and the second column contains the text of the Cluny as far as it can be deciphered. Both transcriptions are by [[Dierk Hagedorn]]. The parts of the ''Zettel'' that don't have any illustrations are still included so you can see where the gaps are. | ||
+ | |||
<div style="display:block; width:240em;"> | <div style="display:block; width:240em;"> | ||
{| class="master" style="width:240em;" | {| class="master" style="width:240em;" | ||
Line 196: | Line 202: | ||
− | Who strikes at you above,<br/> | + | Who strikes at you above,<br/>the Wrath stroke threatens him with the point. |
− | the Wrath stroke threatens him with the point. | ||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
Line 237: | Line 242: | ||
− | Be strong against it;<br/> | + | Be strong against it;<br/>wind, thrust. If he sees that, take it down. |
− | wind, thrust. If he sees that, take it down. | + | |
+ | |||
+ | (The first group take place on the right side of the bind, while the second group take place on the left as a continuation of the play of ''abnemen'') | ||
| {{paget|page:MS CL23842|013r|jpg}} | | {{paget|page:MS CL23842|013r|jpg}} | ||
| rowspan="5" | [[File:Cod.icon. 394a 3r.jpg|300px|center]] | | rowspan="5" | [[File:Cod.icon. 394a 3r.jpg|300px|center]] | ||
Line 284: | Line 291: | ||
| [[file:MS 1825 20v.jpg|200px|center]] | | [[file:MS 1825 20v.jpg|200px|center]] | ||
− | |- | + | |- |
| | | | ||
{| class="zettel" | {| class="zettel" | ||
Line 290: | Line 297: | ||
| <small>30</small> | | <small>30</small> | ||
| {{r!|D}}as eben merck<br/>haw stich leger {{r!|w}}aich oder hert | | {{r!|D}}as eben merck<br/>haw stich leger {{r!|w}}aich oder hert | ||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|} | |} | ||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
− | | | + | | |
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
Line 310: | Line 308: | ||
| | | | ||
− | |- | + | |- style="vertical-align:top;" |
| | | | ||
{| class="zettel" | {| class="zettel" | ||
+ | |- | ||
+ | | <small>31</small> | ||
+ | | Inndes {{r!|v}}nd var nach<br/>an hürt {{r!|D}}ein krieg sey nicht gach | ||
|- | |- | ||
| <small>32</small> | | <small>32</small> | ||
Line 319: | Line 320: | ||
| <small>33</small> | | <small>33</small> | ||
| {{r!|I}}n allen winden<br/>{{r!|H}}aw stich schnÿdt lere vinden | | {{r!|I}}n allen winden<br/>{{r!|H}}aw stich schnÿdt lere vinden | ||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|} | |} | ||
+ | |||
+ | |||
+ | Instantly, and Before and After.<br/>Your War should not be in haste.<br/>Who to the War tends above,<br/>gets ashamed below.<br/>In all winding<br/>learn to find stroke, thrust, and slice. | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | | [[file:MS KK5012 3v.jpg|200px|center]] | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | |||
+ | |- | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | {| class="zettel" | ||
+ | |- | ||
+ | | <small>34</small> | ||
+ | | {{r!|A}}uch soltu mit<br/>prufen {{r!|H}}aw stich oder schnÿd | ||
+ | |- | ||
+ | | <small>35</small> | ||
+ | | {{r!|I}}n allen treffen<br/>{{r!|d}}en maisterñ wiltu sy effen ~ | ||
+ | |} | ||
+ | | | ||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
− | |||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
Line 423: | Line 441: | ||
Crooked on him with nimbleness,<br/>throw the point on the hands. | Crooked on him with nimbleness,<br/>throw the point on the hands. | ||
+ | |||
+ | |||
+ | (Kal follows Ringeck, Cluny follows Danzig/Lew) | ||
| {{paget|page:MS CL23842|016r|jpg}} | | {{paget|page:MS CL23842|016r|jpg}} | ||
| rowspan="2" | | | rowspan="2" | | ||
Line 465: | Line 486: | ||
|- style="vertical-align:top;" | |- style="vertical-align:top;" | ||
− | + | | | |
{| class="zettel" | {| class="zettel" | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 477: | Line 498: | ||
Hew crooked to the flats of<br/>The masters if you wish to weaken them.<br/>When it sparks above<br/>So stand aside, that I will laud. | Hew crooked to the flats of<br/>The masters if you wish to weaken them.<br/>When it sparks above<br/>So stand aside, that I will laud. | ||
− | + | | | |
| style="vertical-align:middle;" | [[File:Cod.icon. 394a 11r.jpg|300px|center]] | | style="vertical-align:middle;" | [[File:Cod.icon. 394a 11r.jpg|300px|center]] | ||
− | + | | | |
− | + | | | |
| [[file:MS KK5012 4v.jpg|200px|center]] | | [[file:MS KK5012 4v.jpg|200px|center]] | ||
− | + | | | |
− | + | | | |
− | | | + | | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
| | | | ||
Line 499: | Line 516: | ||
|} | |} | ||
− | + | ||
− | Crooked not, Short-hew.<br/>Changing-through therewith show. | + | Crooked not, Short-hew.<br/>Changing-through therewith show. |
− | | | + | | |
− | | | + | | |
− | | | + | | |
− | | | + | | |
− | | | + | | |
− | | | + | | |
− | | | + | | |
− | | [[File:MS Germ.Quart.2020 021r.jpg|200px|center]] | + | | [[File:MS Germ.Quart.2020 021r.jpg|200px|center]] |
− | | | + | | |
− | + | ||
− | |- | + | |- |
− | | | + | | |
− | {| class="zettel" | + | {| class="zettel" |
− | |- | + | |- |
− | | <small>47</small> | + | | <small>47</small> |
− | | {{r!-|kr}}ump wer dich Irret<br/>{{r!|D}}er edel kriegk in vor wirret | + | | {{r!-|kr}}ump wer dich Irret<br/>{{r!|D}}er edel kriegk in vor wirret |
− | |- | + | |- |
− | | <small>48</small> | + | | <small>48</small> |
− | | {{r!-|Da}}s er nicht weiß vor war<br/>{{r!|w}}o er sey ane far | + | | {{r!-|Da}}s er nicht weiß vor war<br/>{{r!|w}}o er sey ane far |
− | |} | + | |} |
− | | | + | |
− | | | + | |
+ | Strike crooked to who irritates you,<br/>the Noble War will confuse him,<br/>That he will not know truthfully<br/>where he can be without danger. | ||
+ | | | ||
+ | | [[File:Cod.icon. 394a 11v.jpg|300px|center]] | ||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
Line 930: | Line 950: | ||
| | | | ||
| [[file:MS CL23842 026v.jpg|200px|center]] | | [[file:MS CL23842 026v.jpg|200px|center]] | ||
− | | | + | | [[File:MS KK5012 17r.jpg|200px|center]] |
| | | | ||
| [[File:MS E.1939.65.341 007r.jpg|200px|center]] | | [[File:MS E.1939.65.341 007r.jpg|200px|center]] | ||
Line 1,244: | Line 1,264: | ||
− | Two outer intentions.<br/>The work after that begins. | + | Two outer intentions.<br/>The work after that begins.<br/>And test the attacks<br/>if they are soft or hard.<br/>Learn the feeling.<br/>The word Instantly slices sharply. |
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
Line 1,430: | Line 1,450: | ||
| | | | ||
| [[file:MS CL23842 037r.jpg|200px|center]] | | [[file:MS CL23842 037r.jpg|200px|center]] | ||
− | | | + | | [[File:MS KK5012 17r.jpg|200px|center]] |
| | | | ||
| [[File:MS E.1939.65.341 016v.jpg|200px|center]] | | [[File:MS E.1939.65.341 016v.jpg|200px|center]] | ||
Line 1,452: | Line 1,472: | ||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
− | | | + | | [[File:MS KK5012 6v.jpg|200px|center]] |
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
Line 1,548: | Line 1,568: | ||
|- style="vertical-align:top;" | |- style="vertical-align:top;" | ||
| {{paget|page:MS CL23842|041v|jpg}} | | {{paget|page:MS CL23842|041v|jpg}} | ||
− | | | + | | [[File:Cod.icon. 394a 18v.jpg|300px|center]] |
| | | | ||
| [[file:MS CL23842 041v.jpg|200px|center]] | | [[file:MS CL23842 041v.jpg|200px|center]] | ||
Line 1,780: | Line 1,800: | ||
|- style="vertical-align:top;" | |- style="vertical-align:top;" | ||
| | | | ||
− | "Here begin Peter's | + | "Here begin Peter's pieces: the sword-taking with counters and grappling. This is painted according to the Recital, or according to the Running Through [found in?] the Recital." |
| {{paget|page:MS CL23842|047r|jpg}} | | {{paget|page:MS CL23842|047r|jpg}} | ||
| | | | ||
| | | | ||
| [[file:MS CL23842 047r.jpg|200px|center]] | | [[file:MS CL23842 047r.jpg|200px|center]] | ||
− | | | + | | [[File:MS KK5012 15r.jpg|200px|center]] |
| | | | ||
| | | |
Revision as of 23:56, 16 April 2024
In this table, all pages in the Cluny Fechtbuch long sword section are presented in order. Other pictures are placed around them based on resemblance to Cluny or their respective places in the gloss. In the case of Kal, Falkner, and Wilhalm, the text is disregarded if it contradicts the placement of the illustration in Cluny.
The association of the Zettel with the Cluny illustrations is largely speculative. A few pages of Cluny quote the relevant Zettel passage, but other assignments are based on the Cluny's resemblance to other illustrations with firm Zettel associations, and the rest are filled in based on the assumption that the plays in Cluny follow the sequence of the Zettel.
The Zettel in the first column is quoted from the Starhemberg Fechtbuch (since that's the one Christian Henry Tobler's translation in that column is based on), and the second column contains the text of the Cluny as far as it can be deciphered. Both transcriptions are by Dierk Hagedorn. The parts of the Zettel that don't have any illustrations are still included so you can see where the gaps are.
Notes | Transcription | Hans Talhoffer (Munich) | Paulus Kal | Cluny Fechtbuch (Cl. 23842) | Peter Falkner | Jörg Wilhalm | Glasgow Fechtbuch | Goliath | Hans Medel | ||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[012r] m als |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[012v] m |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[013r] S m |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[013v] sol creuczweiß b |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[014v] S an halz legen |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[015r] b uß der seyten |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[015v] (?) q est |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[016r] krump auff behend
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[016v] b |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Counter to the Zwerch |
[018v] m b a |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[019r] Twer zu dem pflug S m |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Counter |
[019v] m L b |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[020r] Was sich wol twer[t] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[020v] fäler S m |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Counter |
[021r] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Counter |
[022r] b m |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Counter |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[023v] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Counter |
[024r] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[024v] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Alternative |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Counter |
[025r] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[025v] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[026r] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Counter |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[026v] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[027v] kron bricht schaytler
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
(Danzig then Ringeck) |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Counter |
[030v] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Another counter against the parrying |
[031r] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[031v] a |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ringeck absetzen |
[032r] S m |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[032v] m b |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[033r] oder mit dem knopff uff die
S m |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[034r] oder auff den |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[034v] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[035r] |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[035v] .g. vnd .b. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[036r] ain ver fürung uß der h[…] b |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
[036v] nach (?) |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[038r] |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[038v] m b |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[039r] m |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[039v] m b |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[040r] (?) m |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[041r] m S hin nach send auch swert nemen vnd Ein lauffen |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[041v] m b |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[042r] S m |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[042v] m b |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[043v] m b |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[044r] ober schnit
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[045v] nichs |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
[046v] nichs |
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Notes | Transcription | Hans Talhoffer (Munich) | Paulus Kal | Cluny Fechtbuch (Cl. 23842) | Peter Falkner | Jörg Wilhalm | Glasgow Fechtbuch | Goliath | Hans Medel |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
"Here begin Peter's pieces: the sword-taking with counters and grappling. This is painted according to the Recital, or according to the Running Through [found in?] the Recital." |
[047r] Hye hebendt |
||||||||
[047v] |
|||||||||
[048v] b
|
|||||||||
[049r] S |
|||||||||
[049v] b |
|||||||||
[050r] S |
|||||||||
[050v] b |
|||||||||
[051r] S |
|||||||||
[051v] b |
|||||||||
[052r] S |
|||||||||
[052v] b |
|||||||||
[053r] S |
|||||||||
[053v] b |
|||||||||
[054r] S p (?) |
|||||||||
[054v] b |
|||||||||
[055r] S |
|||||||||
[055v] b |
|||||||||
[056r] Ain gehüren (?) |
|||||||||
[056v] b |
|||||||||
[057r] S |
|||||||||
[057v] b |