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Munich 92v / PDF page 30
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Munich 92v / PDF page 30
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{{Latin Lew nav}}
 
[[File:Cod.icon._393_I_092v.jpg|thumb|Page scan]]
 
[[File:Cod.icon._393_I_092v.jpg|thumb|Page scan]]
  
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# quamprimum vero id senseris,  
 
# quamprimum vero id senseris,  
 
# recordêris statim velocitatis,  
 
# recordêris statim velocitatis,  
# ''id est,''
+
# id est,
# ''ut velocissimé in ipso habitu sentiendi[^2] pariter cum hoste concertes,'' [^3]
+
# ''ut velocissimé in ipso habitu sentiendi pariter cum hoste concertes,''
# ''atque ea conditione vulnerabitur praeter opinionem.''
+
# atque ea conditione vulnerabitur praeter opinionem.
  
  
 
=== 92v a English (Sandbox) ===
 
=== 92v a English (Sandbox) ===
# You will understand the action by means of this method of feeling,
+
# You will understand the action by means of this method of sensing,
 
# If you have arrived at the enemy for sword fighting,
 
# If you have arrived at the enemy for sword fighting,
# and you [plural] have mutually contacted the swords out of the initial onset,
+
# and, from the initial onset, you [plural] have mutually contacted the swords,
# then in that mutual flash of the swords it will have been observed next by YOU,[^4]
+
# then during that mutual flash of the swords YOU must soon observe,[^4]
# then he has contacted your sword more or less strongly,[^5]
+
# whether he has contacted your sword more or less strongly,[^5]
# truly you have perceived “it” as much as possible,
+
# as soon as you have truly sensed IT [the contact],
# immediately you should call speed to mind,[^6]
+
# you should immediately be mindful of speed,[^6]
# ''that is,''[^7][^8]
+
# that is to say,
# ''in order that you will fight equally with the enemy [by] most swiftly perceiving in this action,''[^9]
+
# ''while, in that action of swiftest sensing, you are contesting with the enemy at the same time, ''[^9]
# ''and by this work he will be wounded beyond belief.''[^10]
+
# and with this deep thrust, he will be wounded contrary to expectations.
  
 
===92v a smoothed English===
 
===92v a smoothed English===
* Understand this method of perceiving:
+
* Understand this method of sensing:
* Begin by flourishing your sword, then when the swords bind together take note of whether your opponent binds more or less strongly.
+
* When you begin sword fighting, then when the swords bind together quickly take note of whether your opponent binds more or less strongly.
* You must perceive this very quickly in order to hit him.
+
* Be mindful of speed -- that is, stay engaged with the enemy while you are sensing, and you will surprise your enemy with a deep thrust.
  
 
=== 92v a notes ===
 
=== 92v a notes ===
  
 
* [^1]: means either with flourishings of sword or to struggle greatly
 
* [^1]: means either with flourishings of sword or to struggle greatly
* [^2]: perception (feeling) combined with speed, intruding in the regularly scheduled grammar
+
* [^4]: passive periphrastic expresses something that must be done.
* [^3]: perception (feeling) combined with speed, intruding in the regularly scheduled grammar
 
* [^4]: RG: This is the intrusion in the sequence of tenses. And we have both flashing (speed) and observation (feelin?)
 
 
* [^5]: "strongly or less so" is more direct to the latin but this is more english
 
* [^5]: "strongly or less so" is more direct to the latin but this is more english
* [^6]: recall [your] speed?
+
* [^6]: recordo, recordare is rare, but possible. The more common form is a deponent. Recordo takes a genetive object
* [^7]: in the meaning of 'as an example'?
+
* [^9]: intrusive explanation of IT, that is, indes
* [^8]: what if 8 goes with 10 and 9 is the intrusion?
 
* [^9]: intrusion? where does it go?
 
* [^10]: this feels too idiomatic, but seems like the most english rendering of these words
 
 
* Parallel construction, strong or weak, present in the German
 
* Parallel construction, strong or weak, present in the German
 
* confusing habitus in line 1 and 9-- line 9 suggests gesture, because postures aren't swift, but it seems like it should match line 1 which i'm not sure about
 
* confusing habitus in line 1 and 9-- line 9 suggests gesture, because postures aren't swift, but it seems like it should match line 1 which i'm not sure about
 
+
* conditione may be a garbled form of condicio, which means something like agreement, settlement, condition, circumstances
 +
** conditione may be a garbled form of condo, condidi, conditum which has senses like establish, place permanently, set, thrust deeply
 +
** conditione appears 4 times in this text; on 92v, 93r, and 96v it appears to be this "thrust deeply" sense but on 87v "conditions" works better.
  
 
== German text for comparison ==
 
== German text for comparison ==
Line 54: Line 52:
 
===German ===
 
===German ===
 
# Das vernim Allso •  
 
# Das vernim Allso •  
# Indes Duplier[t] /
+
# Indes Duplier /
# Inndes Mutier[t] •  
+
# Inndes Mutier •  
# Inndes wechsel[t] durch •  
+
# Inndes wechsel durch •  
# Inndes lauf[t] durch •  
+
# Inndes lauf durch •  
 
# Inndes Nimb den schnidt •  
 
# Inndes Nimb den schnidt •  
 
# Inndes Rinng mit /  
 
# Inndes Rinng mit /  
Line 66: Line 64:
  
 
===English===
 
===English===
# Understand that [the word indes] as follows:  
+
# Understand this as follows:  
# during doubling,  
+
# Double indesly,  
# during mutating,  
+
# Mutate indesly,  
# during changing through,  
+
# Change through indesly,  
# during running through,  
+
# Run through indesly,  
# during taking the cut,  
+
# Take the cut indesly,  
# during wrestling,  
+
# Wrestle indesly,  
# during taking the sword,  
+
# Take the sword indesly,  
# during doing what your heart desires.
+
# Do what your heart desires indesly.
 
# Indes is a sharp word  
 
# Indes is a sharp word  
 
# which wounds every master, especially those who neither know the word Indes nor understand it.
 
# which wounds every master, especially those who neither know the word Indes nor understand it.
  
 
===Notes===
 
===Notes===
The verbs are so fucked in this whole section between the mss.  
+
The verbs in the manuscript tradition vary between 2nd person imperative and 3 person indicative. While the translation reflects the former possibility and the conjugation in the manuscript, the verb should precede the adverb in an imperative.
 +
In the latter case, the adverb 'indes' is in first grammatical position, the conjugated verb in second, and the implied subject [es] would follow the verb, but is considered unnecessary. [It] doubles indesly...
 
*tue, thut, tun.
 
*tue, thut, tun.
  
Line 87: Line 86:
 
=== 92v b Latin (Sandbox) ===
 
=== 92v b Latin (Sandbox) ===
 
# Porró, sentire,  
 
# Porró, sentire,  
# et celeriter insuper crebris ictibus uti,  
+
# et celeriter insuper crebris ictibus[^17] uti,  
# illi duo habitus á se invicem divelli nequeunt,  
+
# illi duo habitus[^12] á se invicem divelli nequeunt,  
 
# nec alterum absque altero usurpare tutó licebit.
 
# nec alterum absque altero usurpare tutó licebit.
 
# ex hoc igitur percipies.  
 
# ex hoc igitur percipies.  
 
# ''Si senseris,''
 
# ''Si senseris,''
# ''ut supra commemoratum est,''[^11]
+
# ''ut supra commemoratum est,''
 
# ''illum infirmiter vel fortiter ensem tuum tetigisse,''
 
# ''illum infirmiter vel fortiter ensem tuum tetigisse,''
# ''celerrimé utȇris crebris ictibus.''
+
# ''celerrimé utȇris crebris ictibus.''[^11]
 
# nam hij duo habitus semper sunt coniuncti.  
 
# nam hij duo habitus semper sunt coniuncti.  
 
# Secundum autem,  
 
# Secundum autem,  
 
# quod est,  
 
# quod est,  
# ut celersis et velox:  
+
# ut celer sis et velox:  
 
# in omnibus habitibus usurpare poteris.  
 
# in omnibus habitibus usurpare poteris.  
 
#:   
 
#:   
# Scilicet, Conduplationibus, Transmutationibus, Transcursibus, Incisionibus, Luctis,  
+
# Scilicet, Conduplationibus, Transmutationibus, Transcursibus, Incisionibus, Luctis[^18],  
# arrepto ense hoc habitu,  
+
# arrepto ense hoc habitu,[^19]
 
# quicquid volveris,  
 
# quicquid volveris,  
 
# conaberis praecipue id contra hunc habitum tam perstantem ignorantes exercere poteris.
 
# conaberis praecipue id contra hunc habitum tam perstantem ignorantes exercere poteris.
Line 108: Line 107:
  
 
=== 92v b English (Sandbox) ===
 
=== 92v b English (Sandbox) ===
# Perceiving, at a distance,[^12]
+
# Furthermore, sensing
# and quickly using continuous strikes on top of that,  
+
# and quickly using continuous strikes (as previously mentioned),  
# those two gestures cannot mutually tear themselves apart from one another,
+
# those two things cannot be separated from each other,
# it will not be permitted[^13] to safely make use of either without the other.
+
# nor may the second be safely used without the former.
# therefore, you will gain/learn from this.
+
# therefore, you will understand from this.
# ''If you would have perceived,''
+
# ''If you have sensed,''
 
# ''that one to have weakly or strongly touched your sword,''
 
# ''that one to have weakly or strongly touched your sword,''
 
# ''while [the] above was kept in mind,''[^14]
 
# ''while [the] above was kept in mind,''[^14]
# ''[then] you quickly use continuous strikes.''
+
# ''[then] you quickly use [it] within the timeframe of the continuous strikes.''
# for these two gestures are always connected.
+
# for these two things are always connected.
# But moreover another,
+
# And indeed the second,
 
# which is,
 
# which is,
# in order to be fast and quick:[^15]
+
# while you are fast and quick:[^15]
# you can seize upon in all conditions/actions.
+
# you can seize upon [it] in all conditions/actions.
 
#:   
 
#:   
# That is, during doublings together, during changings about, during runnings across, during cuttings into, during wrestlings,
+
# That is, during doubling, during changing about, during running across, during cutting into, during wrestling,
# creeping up on the sword using this gesture,
+
# while snatching the sword with this gesture,
# however you would want,
+
# whatever you would want,
# [if] you will try "it" in particular against this lasting/continuing action, you will be able to practice the unknown ones.
+
# [if] you will attempt, you will be able to exercise IT in particular against those [who are] persistently ignorant of this gesture/action.
 
 
  
 
=== 92v b notes ===
 
=== 92v b notes ===
* [^11]: RG: This is either the grammatical form of the indes, or this author is bonkers.
+
* [^17]: 'crebris ictibus' appears to be the equivalent to the 'krieg', and appears here twice as the equivalent for 'indes'.
* [^12]: or "while extended"? based on similarity to porrectis. Porro as an adverb can mean further on, furthermore, distant, continuing
+
* [^18]: 'luctis/lucto' actually means to mourn, grieve. 'luctor, luctatis' would mean to wrestle. This appears to be an obvious scribal error.
 +
* [^19]: ablative is used to express "the time within which" an event happens. Thus, for example, indes is used within the time required to execute a doubling. We used 'during' in the translation as the least cumbersome equivalent.
 +
* [^11]: RG: could 'crebris ictibus' by the translator's equivalent of 'das wort Indes'? which is still bonkers, btw.
 +
* [^12]: 'illi duo habitus' appears to be idiomatic for 'these two things'
 
* [^13]: in the sense of "one ought not"
 
* [^13]: in the sense of "one ought not"
* [^14]: lines 7-8 is the grammatical intrusion (here swapped from the latin order)
+
* [^14]: lines 7-8 is the grammatical intrusion (here swapped from the latin order): the action of 7 interrupts the actions of 6 and 8.
 
* [^15]: lines 11-13, rhetorical speed and repetition of strikes?
 
* [^15]: lines 11-13, rhetorical speed and repetition of strikes?
 
* confusing habitus in line 14 and 18. I did "gesture" elsewhere in lines 3, 10, and 16 which seemed like movements, but 14 is seizing again and 18 is a thing you can try, but also a thing that persists
 
* confusing habitus in line 14 and 18. I did "gesture" elsewhere in lines 3, 10, and 16 which seemed like movements, but 14 is seizing again and 18 is a thing you can try, but also a thing that persists
 
* "crebris" appears here, without "krieg" in the german at all
 
* "crebris" appears here, without "krieg" in the german at all
 
* parallel construction, strongly or weakly, more or less present in german (despite most of the german concepts being sliced, diced, and mushed).
 
* parallel construction, strongly or weakly, more or less present in german (despite most of the german concepts being sliced, diced, and mushed).
 
+
* ablative list of indesly acting seems to use ablative of time, an action is to be carried out 'indesly' within the time frame defined by the doubling, change about, etc.
hot take: since "indes" is an adverb, "try 'it'" can't mean "try doing indes." is the invisible verb really sentire?
 
: ex: conduplationibus -> with-doubling by means of ''feeling''
 
  
 
== Missing zettel verses from PHM Dresden 103r (Dresden PDF page 43) ==
 
== Missing zettel verses from PHM Dresden 103r (Dresden PDF page 43) ==
Line 197: Line 196:
 
# you plow into the mouth/face[^16].
 
# you plow into the mouth/face[^16].
  
8-9, 11-12 swapped from latin order
+
9-10, 12-13 swapped from latin order
  
 
=== 92v c english alternate ===
 
=== 92v c english alternate ===

Latest revision as of 02:51, 28 March 2023

Munich 92v / PDF page 30

Previous (92r)Next (93r)

Page scan

92v a

92v a Latin (Sandbox)

  1. Habitum sentiendi hac ratione percipies,
  2. Si ad hostem digladiando[^1] perveneris,
  3. atque mutuo gladios ex primo congressu contigeritis,
  4. tum in ipsa ensium coruscatione mutua mox observandum tibi est,
  5. num fortiter vel minus ensem tuum contigerit,
  6. quamprimum vero id senseris,
  7. recordêris statim velocitatis,
  8. id est,
  9. ut velocissimé in ipso habitu sentiendi pariter cum hoste concertes,
  10. atque ea conditione vulnerabitur praeter opinionem.


92v a English (Sandbox)

  1. You will understand the action by means of this method of sensing,
  2. If you have arrived at the enemy for sword fighting,
  3. and, from the initial onset, you [plural] have mutually contacted the swords,
  4. then during that mutual flash of the swords YOU must soon observe,[^4]
  5. whether he has contacted your sword more or less strongly,[^5]
  6. as soon as you have truly sensed IT [the contact],
  7. you should immediately be mindful of speed,[^6]
  8. that is to say,
  9. while, in that action of swiftest sensing, you are contesting with the enemy at the same time, [^9]
  10. and with this deep thrust, he will be wounded contrary to expectations.

92v a smoothed English

  • Understand this method of sensing:
  • When you begin sword fighting, then when the swords bind together quickly take note of whether your opponent binds more or less strongly.
  • Be mindful of speed -- that is, stay engaged with the enemy while you are sensing, and you will surprise your enemy with a deep thrust.

92v a notes

  • [^1]: means either with flourishings of sword or to struggle greatly
  • [^4]: passive periphrastic expresses something that must be done.
  • [^5]: "strongly or less so" is more direct to the latin but this is more english
  • [^6]: recordo, recordare is rare, but possible. The more common form is a deponent. Recordo takes a genetive object
  • [^9]: intrusive explanation of IT, that is, indes
  • Parallel construction, strong or weak, present in the German
  • confusing habitus in line 1 and 9-- line 9 suggests gesture, because postures aren't swift, but it seems like it should match line 1 which i'm not sure about
  • conditione may be a garbled form of condicio, which means something like agreement, settlement, condition, circumstances
    • conditione may be a garbled form of condo, condidi, conditum which has senses like establish, place permanently, set, thrust deeply
    • conditione appears 4 times in this text; on 92v, 93r, and 96v it appears to be this "thrust deeply" sense but on 87v "conditions" works better.

German text for comparison

Page scan

German

  1. Das vernim Allso •
  2. Indes Duplier /
  3. Inndes Mutier •
  4. Inndes wechsel durch •
  5. Inndes lauf durch •
  6. Inndes Nimb den schnidt •
  7. Inndes Rinng mit /
  8. Indes nim das schwert •
  9. Inndes thut* was dein hertz begert •
  10. Indes ist ain scharpffes wort •
  11. Damit alle Maister verschniten werden vnnd zuüorauss die das wort Indes nit wissen oder vernemmen

English

  1. Understand this as follows:
  2. Double indesly,
  3. Mutate indesly,
  4. Change through indesly,
  5. Run through indesly,
  6. Take the cut indesly,
  7. Wrestle indesly,
  8. Take the sword indesly,
  9. Do what your heart desires indesly.
  10. Indes is a sharp word
  11. which wounds every master, especially those who neither know the word Indes nor understand it.

Notes

The verbs in the manuscript tradition vary between 2nd person imperative and 3 person indicative. While the translation reflects the former possibility and the conjugation in the manuscript, the verb should precede the adverb in an imperative. In the latter case, the adverb 'indes' is in first grammatical position, the conjugated verb in second, and the implied subject [es] would follow the verb, but is considered unnecessary. [It] doubles indesly...

  • tue, thut, tun.

92v b

92v b Latin (Sandbox)

  1. Porró, sentire,
  2. et celeriter insuper crebris ictibus[^17] uti,
  3. illi duo habitus[^12] á se invicem divelli nequeunt,
  4. nec alterum absque altero usurpare tutó licebit.
  5. ex hoc igitur percipies.
  6. Si senseris,
  7. ut supra commemoratum est,
  8. illum infirmiter vel fortiter ensem tuum tetigisse,
  9. celerrimé utȇris crebris ictibus.[^11]
  10. nam hij duo habitus semper sunt coniuncti.
  11. Secundum autem,
  12. quod est,
  13. ut celer sis et velox:
  14. in omnibus habitibus usurpare poteris.
  15. Scilicet, Conduplationibus, Transmutationibus, Transcursibus, Incisionibus, Luctis[^18],
  16. arrepto ense hoc habitu,[^19]
  17. quicquid volveris,
  18. conaberis praecipue id contra hunc habitum tam perstantem ignorantes exercere poteris.


92v b English (Sandbox)

  1. Furthermore, sensing
  2. and quickly using continuous strikes (as previously mentioned),
  3. those two things cannot be separated from each other,
  4. nor may the second be safely used without the former.
  5. therefore, you will understand from this.
  6. If you have sensed,
  7. that one to have weakly or strongly touched your sword,
  8. while [the] above was kept in mind,[^14]
  9. [then] you quickly use [it] within the timeframe of the continuous strikes.
  10. for these two things are always connected.
  11. And indeed the second,
  12. which is,
  13. while you are fast and quick:[^15]
  14. you can seize upon [it] in all conditions/actions.
  15. That is, during doubling, during changing about, during running across, during cutting into, during wrestling,
  16. while snatching the sword with this gesture,
  17. whatever you would want,
  18. [if] you will attempt, you will be able to exercise IT in particular against those [who are] persistently ignorant of this gesture/action.

92v b notes

  • [^17]: 'crebris ictibus' appears to be the equivalent to the 'krieg', and appears here twice as the equivalent for 'indes'.
  • [^18]: 'luctis/lucto' actually means to mourn, grieve. 'luctor, luctatis' would mean to wrestle. This appears to be an obvious scribal error.
  • [^19]: ablative is used to express "the time within which" an event happens. Thus, for example, indes is used within the time required to execute a doubling. We used 'during' in the translation as the least cumbersome equivalent.
  • [^11]: RG: could 'crebris ictibus' by the translator's equivalent of 'das wort Indes'? which is still bonkers, btw.
  • [^12]: 'illi duo habitus' appears to be idiomatic for 'these two things'
  • [^13]: in the sense of "one ought not"
  • [^14]: lines 7-8 is the grammatical intrusion (here swapped from the latin order): the action of 7 interrupts the actions of 6 and 8.
  • [^15]: lines 11-13, rhetorical speed and repetition of strikes?
  • confusing habitus in line 14 and 18. I did "gesture" elsewhere in lines 3, 10, and 16 which seemed like movements, but 14 is seizing again and 18 is a thing you can try, but also a thing that persists
  • "crebris" appears here, without "krieg" in the german at all
  • parallel construction, strongly or weakly, more or less present in german (despite most of the german concepts being sliced, diced, and mushed).
  • ablative list of indesly acting seems to use ablative of time, an action is to be carried out 'indesly' within the time frame defined by the doubling, change about, etc.

Missing zettel verses from PHM Dresden 103r (Dresden PDF page 43)

Page scan

zettel german

  1. Nachreysen Zwifach
  2. den alten schnit mit mach

zettel english

  1. Do Nachreissen twice.
  2. Make the old cut with it.

notes

  • FF: The ‘old cut’ is a technique that is not explained anywhere
  • RG: alten is probably earlier or previous

92v c

92v c latin (sandbox)

  1. Consequutio adhibita incisionis forma.
  2. Consequutiones usurpato ex utroque latere addita incisione,
  3. id ita adprehendas.
  4. Si adversarius coram te ictu suo longius excesserit sive de latere dextro,
  5. sive sinistro,
  6. tu animosé ictum eius,
  7. ense tuo consequitor versus nuditatem ipsius.
  8. at si is ensem levarit,
  9. tuumque ensem ab inferné tetigerit,
  10. diligentissimé observato,
  11. ut quamprimum enses fuerint coniuncti,
  12. celeriter brachio hostis,
  13. ensem tuum superimponas ex acie longa,
  14. eaque ratione supprimas,
  15. vel, si mavis,
  16. os proscindas.

92v c english (sandbox)

  1. The sequence of the cutting-into out of the applied form.
  2. You should make use of the sequences out of both sides while adding the cutting-into,
  3. grasp it thus.
  4. If the adversary had passed his long strike before your eyes from the right side,
  5. or the left,
  6. YOU! follow his strike courageously,
  7. with your sword against his opening.
  8. but if HE had raised lifted up the sword,
  9. and your sword had struck from below,
  10. while (during) being observed most carefully,
  11. in order that the swords will have been contacted to the greatest extent,
  12. you place your sword on top (or over [his]) from the long point,
  13. quickly at the shoulder of the enemy,
  14. and you press it down with this account,
  15. or, if you would prefer,
  16. you plow into the mouth/face[^16].

9-10, 12-13 swapped from latin order

92v c english alternate

If the adversary had passed his long strike before your eyes from the right side, or the left, YOU! follow his strike courageously with your sword against his opening. [straightforward] But if HE had lifted up the sword, and your sword had struck from below, then place your sword on top from the long point (quickly [strike] at his shoulder) and press down. or, place your sword on top from long point and plow into his mouth face. At the time of placing your sword on top, the swords will have been contacted to the greatest extent. Insertion: observe all of this most carefully while it’s happening.

92v c notes

  • [^16]: this normally means mouth; last time we saw it we found a sense that was "sword edge." It can also mean bone or the center of something (kernel, nut, heartwood, fruit pit). we've decided to go with mouth since it seems to be a target (parallel with/alternative to the shoulder)